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                        Mt. Holz Science Fiction Society
                    Club Notice - 3/25/94 -- Vol. 12, No. 39


       MEETINGS UPCOMING:

       Unless otherwise stated, all meetings are in Middletown 1R-400C
            Wednesdays at noon.

         _D_A_T_E                    _T_O_P_I_C

       03/30  THE MIND PARASITES by Colin Wilson
       03/31  Hugo Nominations must be postmarked by this date
       04/20  VALIS by Philip K. Dick

       Outside events:
       The Science Fiction Association of Bergen County meets on the second
       Saturday of every month in Upper Saddle River; call 201-933-2724 for
       details.  The New Jersey Science Fiction Society meets on the third
       Saturday of every month in Belleville; call 201-432-5965 for details.

       HO Chair:     John Jetzt        MT 2G-432  908-957-5087 holly!jetzt
       LZ Chair:     Rob Mitchell      HO 1C-523  908-834-1267 holly!jrrt
       MT Chair:     Mark Leeper       MT 3D-441  908-957-5619 mtgzfs3!leeper
       HO Librarian: Nick Sauer        HO 4F-427  908-949-7076 homxc!11366ns
       LZ Librarian: Lance Larsen      HO 2C-318  908-949-4156 quartet!lfl
       MT Librarian: Mark Leeper       MT 3D-441  908-957-5619 mtgzfs3!leeper
       Factotum:     Evelyn Leeper     MT 1F-329  908-957-2070 mtgpfs1!ecl
       All material copyright by author unless otherwise noted.

       1. Our next discussion book is _T_h_e _M_i_n_d _P_a_r_a_s_i_t_e_s by Colin  Wilson.
       This  book  had  its  origins  in a discussion that Wilson had with
       August Derleth, which resulted in Wilson saying that he could write
       a Lovecraftian novel that was as good as one Lovecraft could write.
       The idea of a race  of  monsters  that  controls  humanity  through
       mental  powers  was  re-used  by  Wilson in his later, better-known
       _P_h_i_l_o_s_o_p_h_e_r'_s _S_t_o_n_e.  As Neil Barron says  in  _A_n_a_t_o_m_y  _o_f  _W_o_n_d_e_r,
       "Both  novels  are  replete  with  Wilson's  erudition and enormous
       knowledge of history and culture."  Although Wilson maintained  his
       belief   that  Lovecraft  was  "a  very  bad  writer,"  he  thought
       Lovecraft's vision and literary importance justified making him the
       subject of the first essay in his 1976 study _T_h_e _S_t_r_e_n_g_t_h _t_o _D_r_e_a_m.
       Even if you haven't read any Lovecraft,  you  can  enjoy  _T_h_e  _M_i_n_d
       _P_a_r_a_s_i_t_e_s, so come join us for the discussion.












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       ===================================================================

       2. There is an old question of whether life  imitates  art  or  art
       imitates  life.  Actually I think it is clear that both are true to
       some extent.  Art is less and less interested in imitating life  as
       it  become  more  and more abstract.  That could be because we have
       cameras for really realistic art these days and also because really
       realistic  painting  is a slow and detailed process.  Impressionism
       is really the art of saving yourself a lot of effort  sweating  the
       details  and  having  people impressed by how well you can get away
       with it.

       But it seems true that also life imitates art.  There  is  the  old
       question  of whether we are becoming a violent society because that
       is how we represent ourselves in film.  People look  at  what  they
       see in the big and small screen and try to imitate it in real life.
       This could be some nimnull seeing Beavis  and  Butthead  play  with
       matches and do the same thing himself.  Or it could be Adolf Hitler
       seeing the destruction at the beginning of the film _T_h_i_n_g_s _T_o  _C_o_m_e
       and  saying  he  needs to be able to create the same effect in real
       life.  That is a true story, at  least  if  an  issue  of  Ripley's
       "Believe  It  or Not" is to be believed.  (Hitler also really liked
       the  film  _M_e_t_r_o_p_o_l_i_s  according  to  Fritz  Lang's  biography  and
       according  to  Trivial  Pursuit  his  favorite  film was _K_i_n_g _K_o_n_g.
       Apparently he was a  real  fan  of  fantasy  films,  an  historical
       insight  you rarely see in the history books.  That's just a slight
       digression.)

       So life does imitate art.  But in an odd cessation of the  laws  of
       causality, prehistoric life seems to also imitate contemporary art.
       It used to be  that  paleontologists  laughed  at  dinosaur  movies
       because  the  dinosaurs shown were just too big.  Not only did they
       out-scale any of the fossils that had been found, they were  bigger
       than  any  fossils  that  ever would be found.  After all there are
       theoretical limits to how big you can  have  a  reptile  before  it
       becomes  structurally unsound.  And the dinosaurs in films are just
       too darn big.  And they started telling us how big  a  reptile  can
       get.

       Well naturally, just a short time later they discovered the remains
       of  flying  reptiles  that were impossibly large.  They called them
       Rodans after the monster in a Japanese sci-fi movie.  What we think
       of   a   gentle  sauropods  started  turning  uncooperative.   Both
       seismosaurus and supersaurus, subsequently  discovered,  go  beyond
       the  theoretical  size limits of reptiles.  Now the people who used
       to trumpet loudly about size  limitations  on  dinosaurs  are  just
       quietly waiting to see what else will be discovered.  Mother Nature
       does not like having limitations put on  what  she  can  do.   They
       haven't  found  any  two-hundred-foot-tall  Godzillas (four hundred
       feet feet in the English-language version) and probably never will,
       but nobody is really sure what the limits are anymore.











       THE MT VOID                                                  Page 3



       The latest is that Spielberg's _J_u_r_a_s_s_i_c _P_a_r_k exaggerated  the  size
       of  velociraptors for artistic effect.  Raptors were nasty but they
       were not as big as they appeared in the film ...  it  was  thought.
       And  his  advisors  complained that Raptors were just not that big.
       Apparently Mother Nature saw the film and said "I  got  to  get  me
       some  of those."  Before the film even was released fossils twenty-
       foot-long, 1500-pound Raptors were found in Utah.  They called them
       Spielberg's  Raptors  (or Utahraptors for the state where they were
       discovered).  It's not nice to underestimate Mother Nature.


       ===================================================================

       3. JEDI SEARCH  by  Kevin  J.  Anderson  (read  by  Anthony  Heald)
       (Bantam,   ISBN  0-553-47199-6,  audio  cassette,  180  min,  1994,
       US$16.99) (an audiocassette review by Mark R. Leeper):

       I don't often have much opportunity to review cassette readings  of
       abridgements of novels, though I will frequently take the sting out
       of work around the house by listening to  novels  on  cassette  via
       Walkman.   It certainly isn't my preferred way to read a novel, but
       it is the just about the most entertaining  way  I  know  of  doing
       housework.   I  usually  listen to novels like _T_h_e _F_i_r_m, but when a
       review copy of _J_e_d_i _S_e_a_r_c_h showed up in the house, I figured,  what
       the heck.

       _J_e_d_i _S_e_a_r_c_h is the first novel of  Kevin  Anderson's  Jedi  Academy
       Trilogy.  The series continues the adventures where the film series
       left off, with a story of Luke Skywalker  trying  to  rekindle  the
       order  of  Jedi  Knights  by finding and training new adepts in the
       Force.  What can you say about the plot?  It is just about what you
       would  expect  from  a  new "Star Wars" film.  Anderson was clearly
       trying to translate the experience of  seeing  a  new  "Star  Wars"
       installment into book--or in this case cassette--form.  We have new
       threats from  the  nasty  Empire  with  bigger  and  more  powerful
       weapons.   We  have  the dubious joy of visiting the spice mines of
       Kessel, mentioned in the first film.  Anderson has very consciously
       tried to tie the events, locations, and even objects of the series'
       films as if they were Anderson's series all along.

       This cassette production is read by  Anthony  Heald,  who  will  be
       familiar  to  some  as Hannibal Lecter's obnoxious psychiatrist and
       keeper from the film _T_h_e _S_i_l_e_n_c_e _o_f _t_h_e _L_a_m_b_s.   There  are  a  few
       artificial touches to make an attempt to use the medium to increase
       the cinematic feel.  Chewbacca  doesn't  speak  any  language  that
       sounds  to  us  humans  as  articulate.   He just sort of mornfully
       bellows.  They  have  gotten  the  sound  of  one  bellow  off  the
       soundtrack  and  they  play it whenever Chewbacca is supposed to be
       speaking.  I believe that is the only sound effect taken  from  the
       films,  but  it  is  used  profusely.  At times the production team
       over-use it and it becomes obvious that they have only  one  bellow











       THE MT VOID                                                  Page 4



       which  they use for all moods and messages.  The cassette also uses
       the original John Williams score to add excitement to many  of  the
       scenes.   Though  they  are,  of  course,  limited to music that is
       already familiar--they hardly were going to hire Williams or anyone
       else  to  add  to  the  original three scores.  That is sort of the
       spirit of the  whole  production.   It  does  as  many  simple  and
       inexpensive  touches  it  can to recreate the feel of what has gone
       before without adding too much that is original or new.

       This  cassette  was  nothing  earth-shaking,  but  it  considerably
       improved  the  dreary task of shoveling my driveway.  And I'll tell
       you I had one heck of a lot of empathy for Han Solo's back-breaking
       labors  in  the  spice  mines  of Kessel.  There is such a thing as
       going too far to make the listener think he is part of the story.


       ===================================================================

       4. Boskone 31 (con report by Evelyn C. Leeper) (part 2 of 3):

                            Sources of Fear in Horror
                                  Friday, 11 PM
                   David G. Hartwell (mod), Constance Hirsch,
                      Lawrence Schimel, Darrell Schweitzer

       The panelists started with some opening thoughts.  Hirsch said that
       we  read  horror  for  the  thrill (caused by the fear, I suppose).
       Schimel said that the most effective sources of horror  are  family
       relationships  and  abusive  relationships.   Hartwell claimed that
       horror "jumpstarts" the emotions.  This was reminiscent  of  Tanith
       Lee's  claim at another convention that the purpose of horror is to
       give us practice in being frightened.  When  I  asked  about  this,
       Hirsch  noted that this was not true, because in reading horror you
       could always stop if  things  got  too  scary.   Schweitzer  had  a
       different  view: "There are certain stories that are too dumb to be
       done straight."  We're not afraid of where our teeth go,  he  said;
       it's  not  about _h_o_n_e_s_t emotion.  He also said, "Horror is a series
       of recognizable tropes and images" rather than a certain plot.   He
       pointed out that if you take a horror story and set it in Atlantis,
       suddenly it becomes fantasy.

       Someone cited Kathleen Koja's observation that  horror  is  written
       for  two  audiences:  teenage  boys  afraid of castration and women
       afraid of men.  Even knowing this, panelists thought it was hard to
       write  about fear on demand.  Hartwell said that to get twenty-five
       stories for an anthology of horror stories he was putting together,
       he needed to ask two hundred fifty people.

       There is also a difference between being disturbed by a  novel  and
       being  scared.   Hartwell  said his rule of thumb was, "If a horror
       story is done with art, then it is as  illuminating  as  any  other











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       art.   If  a  horror  story  of done without art, then it is horror
       performed on me and I do not like it."  Horror  should  be  honest,
       not  gimmicky.   Hirsch  feels that one purpose of horror is to let
       the reader vicariously triumph.  There is a  "right  way"  to  read
       horror,  according  to  Hartwell.   You need to find the trope that
       jumpstarts your emotions, he said, and then read for those  effects
       which  are  awesome  (in  the  literal  sense  of creating fear and
       wonder).

       There was brief note of the  difference  between  supernatural  and
       psychological  horror.  Five years ago the psychological horror was
       gaining, but now that is not as true.  Horror is now found all over
       the  bookstore:  the  mystery  section,  the  fiction  section, the
       suspense section, etc.  ("Dark Suspense" is the marketing term  for
       non-fantasy  horror,  if that helps.)  For example, Susan Palwick's
       _F_l_y_i_n_g _i_n  _P_l_a_c_e  was  marketed  as  a  mainstream  women's  novel.
       Whether or not the supernatural is involved, Hartwell said, "horror
       is convincing the reader that something absurd in the real world is
       real  for  the  time of the book."  It's all about the "infusion of
       the irrational into the rational."

       Schweitzer noted that people's reactions to horror change  as  they
       age/mature.  When you're young (immature) you laugh at horror.  Not
       laughing, and being disturbed by it, is a sign of maturity.

       Someone quoted H. P. Lovecraft as saying, "The real connoisseurs of
       horror  have  to  make  do  with  parts  of  literary works," which
       Hartwell called "moments of discovery."

       There was brief mention made of why  there  was  so  little  horror
       poetry:  it's  hard  to  write  it well.  (Apropos of nothing here,
       someone noted that Gilbert & Sullivan  rhyme  with  three  or  more
       syllables  for  comic  effect.   I think the drift was that rhyming
       things gives them a touch of humor--rhyming with multiple syllables
       multiplies the humor.)

       Panelists recommended Roald Dahl, Shirley  Jackson,  John  Collier,
       Tanith  Lee,  Gene  Wolfe,  Barry N. Malzberg, H. P. Lovecraft, and
       Clark Ashton Smith.  (NESFA Press  will  be  publishing  Malzberg's
       _P_a_s_s_a_g_e  _o_f _t_h_e _L_i_g_h_t.)  Schweitzer claimed that Jonathan Carroll's
       _L_a_n_d _o_f _L_a_u_g_h_s is "the best horror novel of  the  last  twenty-five
       years,"  and  described  it  as what would have resulted if "Philip
       K. Dick and [someone else] conspired to write L. Frank Baum."   _T_h_e
       _S_c_a_r_f  by Robert Bloch was also heavily recommended, and Schweitzer
       said  that  _D_a_r_k  _D_e_s_c_e_n_t  edited  by  Hartwell  was  _t_h_e  standard
       anthology.   Ramsey Campbell's _C_o_u_n_t _o_f _E_l_e_v_e_n was cited as a funny
       serial killer novel (if you're looking for that sort of thing).  On
       the  other  hand,  Hartwell  said  that Bradford Morrow and Patrick
       McGrath's _N_e_w _G_o_t_h_i_c anthology was a "pile of shit."













       THE MT VOID                                                  Page 6



       When asked for the most horrific  thing  they  had  read  recently,
       panelists   listed  M. R. James's  work  (Schweitzer),  Billie  Sue
       Mosiman's "No Restrictions" in _P_u_l_p_h_o_u_s_e 516 (Hirsch),  W. Somerset
       Maugham's  stories (Schimel), and a Frank Robinson manuscript and a
       Gene Wolfe story  (Hartwell).   Also  mentioned  was  Susan  Wade's
       "White  Rook,  Black  Pawn,"  which  will appear in an Ellen Datlow
       anthology in 1996.

       I note that there was  not  much  discussion  about  the  purported
       subject of the panel, the sources of fear in horror, other than the
       comment about family and abusive relationships.

                                Saturday Morning

       Last year we could not go out for breakfast because our car battery
       was  dead.  This year we did go out, and I concluded that the hotel
       was better than Friendly's.

                                Immoral Fiction?
                                 Saturday, 10 AM
        Thomas A. Easton (mod), Michael F. Flynn, Patrick Nielsen Hayden,
                            Melissa Scott, Jane Yolen

       The panelists began by saying that they would be talking  primarily
       about  adult  fiction, since children's fiction required a somewhat
       different approach.

       Yolen opened by saying that the author has to be honest  about  his
       or  her  fiction  (shades of what Will Shetterly said in the "Comic
       Books and Alternate History" panel and what David Hartwell said  in
       the  "Sources of Fear in Horror" panel).  Nielsen Hayden added that
       fiction is a sort of experiment  (where  the  author  postulates  a
       situation  and  then  plays it out).  The reader, however, may read
       things into novels that are not there.

       Flynn summarized what most panelists  (and  probably  most  of  the
       audience) believed: that when someone talks about "immoral fiction"
       he or she means "that which I do not  believe"  or  "that  which  I
       disagree with."  Examples of fiction which are often called immoral
       under this definition were given as Robert  A. Heinlein's  _S_t_a_r_s_h_i_p
       _T_r_o_o_p_e_r_s, William Golding's _L_o_r_d _o_f _t_h_e _F_l_i_e_s, and all the works of
       John Norman.

       Easton thought it was important to distinguish between morality and
       ethics,  his  distinction  being  that  the  former  is grounded in
       religion and the latter is not.  The other panelists, however, felt
       that  this was merely a word game and wanted to consider the two as
       just different terms for the same concept.

       Someone said that "moral fiction" is sometimes defined  as  fiction
       that  concerns itself with the issues of right and wrong.  But then











       THE MT VOID                                                  Page 7



       if English were a logical  language,  "immoral  fiction"  would  be
       fiction  that  does  not concern itself with the issue of right and
       wrong.  However, English is not a  logical  language.   The  latter
       sort  of  fiction  might  be  termed  "amoral fiction," but clearly
       "immoral fiction" means fiction that concerns itself with the issue
       of  right  and wrong, but comes up with the "wrong" answers.  Scott
       later gave as an example of this novels written  by  African  women
       which consider female "circumcision" a good thing.

       Nielsen Hayden said that one thing to remember in all this is  that
       science  fiction is a didactic form; Yolen responded by saying that
       all fiction is inherently didactic.   Nielsen  Hayden  agreed  that
       might  be  true,  but  still  felt  that  science  fiction was more
       didactic than realistic fiction.  Easton pointed out  that  because
       science  fiction  relied on hypothetical scenarios ("what if?"), it
       was easier for it to break tabus than for realistic fiction  to  do
       so.   But  was  doing  so  immoral?  Consider the film _T_h_e _P_r_o_g_r_a_m,
       which had a scene of students lying down on the center  line  of  a
       road.   After  someone  who  had  seen  the  film did this--and was
       killed--Touchstone removed that scene from  all  prints.   Was  the
       film  (in  legal  terms)  an  "attractive  nuisance"?  (The classic
       "attractive nuisance" is a backyard swimming pool.  The owners  are
       supposed to _k_n_o_w that neighborhood kids will be attracted to it and
       put a locked fence around it.)  By the way, the audience seemed  to
       feel  the  action in the film was less an "attractive nuisance" and
       more a case of "evolution in action."  My example of this would  be
       the  Bible: is Christianity (or God) responsible for the misuse and
       misinterpretation of the Bible?  If Christians claim not,  then  it
       hardly  seems  fair  for  them then to attack other authors for the
       misuse of _t_h_e_i_r works.

       Nielsen Hayden observed that this--and much  of  the  criticism  of
       fiction  as  immoral--seemed to assume that authors have some power
       to change society.  "If we really  did  had  the  power  to  change
       society by our writing, we'd use it in a much more focused way," he
       said.

       Yolen said that what she thought of as immoral fiction was  fiction
       that was slickly sentimental and manipulative, such as Robert James
       Waller's _B_r_i_d_g_e_s  _o_f  _M_a_d_i_s_o_n  _C_o_u_n_t_y,  David  Eastman's  _V_e_l_v_e_t_e_e_n
       _R_a_b_b_i_t,  and  Shel Silverstein's _G_i_v_i_n_g _T_r_e_e.  As Yolen said, "It's
       easy to make a reader cry, but harder  to  make  a  reader  think."
       "Comfy  books"  are  okay,  she  continued,  but they should not be
       considered on the  same  level  as  more  thought-provoking  works.
       Easton  tried to rephrase this as, "It's the excess that makes them
       immoral," but with that definition I think  you  have  the  problem
       that  you  cannot  say  that  a  book  is _i_n_h_e_r_e_n_t_l_y immoral--and I
       suspect that there are books that people would say  are  inherently
       immoral.













       THE MT VOID                                                  Page 8



       Flynn noted, "We seem to be saying that moral books question rather
       than  affirm,"  and  in  science  fiction it is difficult to affirm
       because science fiction is a questioning ("what if?" again)  genre.
       And  what  disturbs  people  is  not asking the questions, it's the
       answers that are arrived at.

       Nielsen Hayden did say that wrong-headed writers  have  a  purpose:
       they  are  useful to argue with.  They also give one the experience
       of being "seduced by garbage" and teach one to read critically.  Of
       course,  this  process takes place only after you realize that what
       you had believed is in fact garbage, and this may take time, but as
       you grow up you often change your mind about books you read earlier
       in life.  The examples he gave of this were Robert A. Heinlein  and
       Ayn Rand.

       Talking about children's books, someone in the audience  said  that
       she  often has parents ask for a recommendation, but then they add,
       "I don't want my child disturbed."  (Of course, this may just  mean
       "please  don't  pick  a  book  that  will  give  my  three-year-old
       nightmares.")

       The panelists also mentioned John Gardner's _O_n _M_o_r_a_l _F_i_c_t_i_o_n.

                         Neglected SF and Fantasy Films
                                Saturday, 12 noon
             Daniel Kimmel (mod), W. Michael Henigan, Mark R. Leeper

       (I had wanted to see the "Catholicism and  Science  Fiction"  panel
       (held  somewhat  ironically  in  the  King Henry room), but loyalty
       demanded I attend this one.  Henigan and Kimmel were  both  wearing
       SF-Lovers  Digest  T-shirts, but I was wearing ours instead of Mark
       wearing it.  Moderators should let people know what the dress  code
       is.  :-) )

       What can one say about a panel on neglected films  where  panelists
       volunteer such "neglected" films as _F_o_r_b_i_d_d_e_n _P_l_a_n_e_t?

       Well, ARRGGHH! is about the only comment that comes to mind.

       It started off well enough, with panelists noting that many factors
       lead  to films being neglected: being in black and white, having no
       special effects, getting bad  reviews,  and  so  on.   Then  Kimmel
       listed   some  films  that  he  thought  were  unfairly  neglected:
       _C_o_n_e_h_e_a_d_s, _H_e_a_r_t_b_e_e_p_s, _I_n_n_e_r _S_p_a_c_e, and  _Q_u_i_n_t_e_t.   All,  you  will
       note,  are  relatively  recent (the oldest, _Q_u_i_n_t_e_t, is from 1979).
       Leeper's films, on the other hand, were older:  _T_h_e  _M_i_n_d  _B_e_n_d_e_r_s,
       _U_n_e_a_r_t_h_l_y  _S_t_r_a_n_g_e_r,  _D_a_r_k  _I_n_t_r_u_d_e_r,  and _Q_u_e_s_t _f_o_r _L_o_v_e.  Henigan
       listed _L_o_g_a_n'_s _R_u_n, _S_o_y_l_e_n_t _G_r_e_e_n, and _F_a_h_r_e_n_h_e_i_t _4_5_1.

       Admittedly, the panelists did start moving backward in time a  bit,
       naming  _C_r_e_a_t_i_o_n  _o_f  _t_h_e  _H_u_m_a_n_o_i_d_s, _D_r_a_g_o_n_s_l_a_y_e_r, _D_u_n_e (this is a











       THE MT VOID                                                  Page 9



       neglected film?  Badly thought of maybe, but hardly  neglected),  _I
       _M_a_r_r_i_e_d  _a  _M_o_n_s_t_e_r  _f_r_o_m  _O_u_t_e_r _S_p_a_c_e, _L_i_f_e_f_o_r_c_e, _P_h_a_s_e _I_V, _S_p_a_c_e_d
       _I_n_v_a_d_e_r_s, _S_t_r_a_n_g_e _I_n_v_a_d_e_r_s,  _T_h_e  _T_w_o_n_k_y,  and  _V_i_d_e_o_d_r_o_m_e.   Other
       films  mentioned  included  _Y_e_u_x  _s_a_n_s  _V_i_s_a_g_e,  _C_a_r_n_i_v_a_l _o_f _S_o_u_l_s,
       _D_e_l_i_c_a_t_e_s_s_e_n, _T_h_e _E_n_d _o_f _A_u_g_u_s_t _i_n _t_h_e  _H_o_t_e_l  _O_z_o_n_e,  _T_h_e  _D_y_b_b_u_k,
       _F_a_n_t_a_s_t_i_c  _P_l_a_n_e_t,  _T_h_e _L_a_t_h_e _o_f _H_e_a_v_e_n, _T_h_e _M_a_n _W_h_o _L_a_u_g_h_s, _R_e_t_u_r_n
       _t_o _O_z, _S_e_c_o_n_d_s, _S_o_m_e_t_h_i_n_g _W_i_c_k_e_d  _T_h_i_s  _W_a_y  _C_o_m_e_s,  and  something
       called  _B_e_r_n_a_r_d  _a_n_d  _G_e_n_i_e  (sp?)   from  the Arts & Entertainment
       Network.

       Kimmel also mentioned _A_l_t_e_r_e_d _S_t_a_t_e_s, noting  that  it  opened  the
       same weekend as _S_c_a_n_n_e_r_s and was eclipsed by that film.

       Leeper provided a handout of his list of  "neglected  films,"  with
       commentary; it has already run in the MT VOID.

                          Turbulence and Psychohistory
                                 Saturday, 1 PM
             Evelyn C. Leeper (mod), Michael F. Flynn, Robert Glaub,
                     Mark Keller, Andrew Nisbet, Mark Olson

       (Thanks to Mark Leeper for taking copious notes at this panel.)

       The panelists began by introducing themselves  (before  I  arrived,
       because  I  managed  to  get lost finding the room--my own personal
       turbulence, I guess).  Flynn said that he had written a novel about
       psychohistory, _I_n _t_h_e _C_o_u_n_t_r_y _o_f _t_h_e _B_l_i_n_d.  Robert Glaub works for
       the Department of Defense and is an amateur historian.  Mark Keller
       is  a  well-known  alternate history buff.  Mark Olson started with
       alternate history and went on to become interested in real history.
       And  I  got  to do something that I have complained for years about
       others doing--promote a published work of mine,  in  this  case  an
       article  in  the  first  issue  of  _A_l_t_e_r_n_a_t_e _W_o_r_l_d_s.  So I guess I
       should complain about myself.  Take it as read.

       I began by couching the panel's topic in terms of chaos theory.  If
       chaos  theory  is  correct,  and  very  small  changes  in  initial
       conditions can effect enormous changes in results, then how is  the
       prediction  of the future affected, or the prediction of what might
       have happened if something had gone differently?

       Nesbit said that the function of history is to  present  the  past,
       not  to predict the future, and that psychohistory has little to do
       with history.  Olson said that sounded like what  astronomers  used
       to  say,  that we can never find out the makeup of the stars, so it
       was pointless to speculate.  Should our view of history be based on
       whether  we have the means to determine it?  The Bernoullis applied
       probability theory to history; should we?   Flynn  said  that  most
       people  trained  in  history  are  not  trained  in mathematics and
       statistics, so trying to apply those to history  is  something  few
       experts  can  do.  (And then a few minutes later proceeded to do so











       THE MT VOID                                                 Page 10



       in  great  detail.)   Keller   felt   that   prediction   was   not
       unreasonable,  and  that  we  could  use  the  lessons  of history.
       Everyone knows of Santayana's statement  that  "those  who  do  not
       learn  from  history  are  condemned to repeat it" (though I cannot
       find a source for this citation), but Keller quoted Kliuchevsky  as
       saying,  "History  doesn't teach us anything, but it punishes those
       who don't learn  the  lessons."   (Of  course,  Hegel  said,  "What
       experience  and  history teach is this--that people and governments
       never have learned anything from history, or  acted  on  principles
       deduced from it" [introduction, _P_h_i_l_o_s_o_p_h_y _o_f _H_i_s_t_o_r_y].)

       Flynn cited the science of cliometrics (after  Clio,  the  Muse  of
       History),  which  claims  that  there  are  laws in the way society
       works.  Until cliometrics was discovered (or invented, depending on
       your  point  of view), human society was considered an invention of
       the gods.  We still question, however,  whether  human  society  is
       somehow "hard-wired" into our brains or not.

       Regarding predicting the future, Ben Yalow (in the  audience)  said
       that  a  while  back  someone  was predicting how the Supreme Court
       would  rule  on  various  issues.   Keller  noted  that  was   only
       predicting   what  nine  people  would  decide  and  was  not  that
       difficult, given their past decision  history.   The  Germans,  for
       example,  had  a  big  file  on Patton in an attempt to predict his
       actions.  Nesbit said that what worried him was  that  examples  of
       psychohistory  were fallacious and started to explain why, and then
       it became clear that I had failed in a primary task of a moderator:
       I  had not had us define our terms.  Most of us were using Asimov's
       definition of psychohistory, involving predicting the course of the
       future  based  on  the idea that, while the behavior of individuals
       cannot be predicted, the behavior of large  groups  of  individuals
       can.   (Asimov  got  this  idea  by  analogy from the action of gas
       molecules.)  But Nesbit was  interpreting  psychohistory  as  being
       about  applying  psychology  and  psychoanalysis  to individuals to
       predict their actions.   Having  cleared  up  this  confusion,  and
       established  that  we  would  be  using  the  Asmovian  concept, we
       proceeded.

       And where we proceeded was to cycles.  Flynn  first  mentioned  the
       concept,  and after responding to an audience member who thought C.
       Northcote Parkinson was the greatest thinker of the West  and  that
       Parkinson  had  said  that  there  was a rhythm of history in which
       China has a three-hundred-year  cycle,  Flynn  produced  dozens  of
       viewgraphs  showing  the  various  cycles  of  history that he (and
       others) had discovered.

       Flynn began by discussing correlations.  For example,  there  is  a
       95%  correlation  between  the  percentage of women working and the
       percentage of imported automobiles versus the domestic market.  The
       conclusion  one might come to, therefore, is that to reduce foreign
       trade one should get women back into  the  kitchen.   But  _a_n_y  two











       THE MT VOID                                                 Page 11



       increasing  trends  will  correlate (and discounting the "Rosie the
       Riveter"  bump  in  1944,  the  working-women  trend  has  been  an
       increasing one all this century).

       The first cycle Flynn showed on a viewgraph was the  cycle  of  the
       number  of  slave  revolts  and  race  riots, starting with a slave
       revolt in 1837.  This is stable with occasional spikes, the  spikes
       occurring  at  regular intervals about two generations apart.  ("Be
       out of town in 2010," was his advice.)

       Flynn  noted  that,  oddly   enough,   random   processes   produce
       predictable  patterns.  Trends and cycles that Flynn discussed were
       the number of wars per decade (random),  the  number  of  homicides
       versus  gun  control,  and the number of children per family versus
       family income (as people get richer, they have fewer children,  but
       there was a drop in 1919 and a post-World War II baby boom, as well
       as another baby boom in the 1980s).  And often we  do  not  realize
       that   we  have  been  in  an  atypical  period.   If  we  look  at
       unemployment over a long period of time, we  discover  that  median
       unemployment  of  5%  is  normal.  It's just that we were in a boom
       time from World War II and the Cold War and did not realize that it
       was  not  going  to  last.   Sometimes  a change in the process can
       change a trend.  For example, business failures dropped  after  the
       Great  Depression,  but  that was because not because the economics
       had gotten so much better, but that laws made it harder to  go  out
       of business.

       On a depressing note, Flynn showed the  graph  for  the  money  the
       United  States collects, as a percentage of the GNP.  In the 1940s,
       it starts going up, not in  an  exponential  curve,  but  a  super-
       exponential one!

       As the panelists noted, this cyclic  nature  of  history  does  not
       really  help the predictor.  One can predict approximately how many
       coups there will be in the world in a decade, for example, but this
       does  not help predict that there will be a coup in Urago on May 17
       of next year.  (Which of course means that Hari Seldon's  right-on-
       the-date  predictions  were  pure  fiction.)  You can say that some
       areas of the country are prone to thunderstorms, but you cannot say
       when  there  will  be  one.  Nesbit said that some people may think
       that all of human behavior can be predicted with  a  straight  edge
       and  semi-log  paper,  but  it's  more complex than that.  Even the
       motion of the planets is a chaotic system,  and  while  it  can  be
       predicted  in  the  short  term,  the  longer  the period, the less
       accurate the predictions become.

       And even cycles can be  perturbed  (as  has  already  been  noted).
       Nesbit cited a power plant whose proponents said that it would meet
       the growing energy needs of the area.  But after it was built,  the
       demand  for  energy  either  went down, or did not go up as fast as
       predicted.  However, the reason for  this  was  that  the  cost  of











       THE MT VOID                                                 Page 12



       building  the  plant  had  been  so  high  as  to raise the cost of
       electricity, and that made people cut back on their usage!  Another
       example  was  the  number  of  suicides by gas in Britain.  At some
       point it was made more difficult to commit suicide by gas (I forget
       how)  and  so  that  trend  changed.   (But possibly other types of
       suicides went up.)   Flynn  said  that  science  is  deciding  what
       produces trend lines and whether it can it be depended on.

       Returning to the predictive powers of  historians,  Keller  claimed
       that  many  people  say  the  future  was  predicted in Revelation,
       Nostradamus, and Cayce.  I noted that the "predictions" all  seemed
       to  have  been  noticed  only after the fact, and that no one could
       figure out what was meant before something happened.  I  also  said
       that  while  it  is easy to explain why things happened in the past
       and make it at least plausible, when people turn these theories  to
       the  future,  they  do not seem to work.  For example, Paul Kennedy
       explained at great length why countries rose and fell in  _T_h_e  _R_i_s_e
       _a_n_d  _F_a_l_l _o_f _t_h_e _G_r_e_a_t _P_o_w_e_r_s, but then blew it all by claiming (in
       the late 1980s) that Germany would never re-unite,  and  explaining
       why.  (Nesbit responded that Kennedy's explanations of history were
       not entirely convincing, and claimed that Kennedy had said that the
       rise of Bohemia was due to brass mines there.)

       Olson asked, "If you had a time machine, could you make a  change?"
       Well,  of  course  you  could  (I  pointed  out  you could kill the
       Beatles, which would certainly be _a  change),  so  Olson  clarified
       that   he   was  looking  for  whether  one  could  change  history
       _e_f_f_e_c_t_i_v_e_l_y.   Ben  Yalow  (in  the  audience)  thought  that  just
       occasionally  you  could  catch  the cusp and do so.  Olson replied
       that he did not believe in cusps, because any small change  changes
       who gets born.  (In other words, he supports the "Great Man" theory
       rather than the "Tide of History" theory.)  Olson claimed that  the
       change  in  who  is  born  would be the same as replacing people by
       fraternal twins, though why he chooses fraternal twins  instead  of
       ordinary  siblings  is not clear to me.  Yalow said that meant that
       Olson was claiming you could change history, to which Olson replied
       that  yes,  he  could  _c_h_a_n_g_e history, but he could not predict (or
       control) the direction the new  history  would  take.   Glaub  also
       backed  the  "Great  Man"  theory.   Keller  said  the trick was in
       knowing what the critical changes are.  Flynn said that  no  matter
       what  random  events are changed, certain results will occur (i.e.,
       he backs the "Tide of History" theory).  He used the analogy  of  a
       fern  leaf, where there are alternate branchings, but they all tend
       to go in the  same  direction.   Nesbit  did  not  think  he  could
       manipulate history effectively, but thought it would be interesting
       to experiment and see what would happen if things were changed.  (I
       had  the  same  feeling  this last election.  I would be curious to
       know what would have happened if Perot had been  elected,  but  not
       curious  enough to commit myself to that future!)  By repeating the
       experiment  over  and  over,  one  might  detect  patterns.   Olson
       somewhat  humorously asked Nesbit how he would get informed consent











       THE MT VOID                                                 Page 13



       from his experimental subjects.  Flynn said that the  problem  with
       all  this  is  that  all  you  can do is fiddle with epiphenomena--
       individual events--while factors of the population as a  whole  are
       hard to change.  How can you change the literacy rate, for example?
       You could sink Columbus, but someone  else  would  have  made  that
       trip--the  Americas  are  just  too  close to Europe to avoid being
       "discovered."

       In regards to all this, Olson recommended a new  book  called  _T_i_m_e
       _M_a_c_h_i_n_e_s: _T_i_m_e _T_r_a_v_e_l _i_n _P_h_y_s_i_c_s, _M_e_t_a_p_h_y_s_i_c_s, & _S_c_i_e_n_c_e _F_i_c_t_i_o_n by
       Paul J. Nahin.  And the book  that  Flynn  used  for  many  of  his
       viewgraphs,  and has quoted on many other alternate history panels,
       is _C_y_c_l_e_s, _t_h_e _S_c_i_e_n_c_e _o_f _P_r_e_d_i_c_t_i_o_n by Edward R. Dewey  and  Edwin
       F. Dakin,  which in 1947 predicted the economic cycles that we seem
       to be living through: a big recession in the early  1980s,  another
       smaller  one  in  the early 1990s, an upturn in January 1993, and a
       big upturn in 2006.  (This is supposedly still in  print  from  the
       Foundation  for the Study of Cycles, 1964, 255pp, $15.)  (Regarding
       the economic cycles, Olson said, "Even if I  believed  history  was
       mechanical,  I  would be skeptical."  The charts were too accurate;
       you would not expect that sort of accuracy,  he  said.   And  books
       keep  predicting  that  there is a recession coming: there has been
       one predicted for just about every  year  in  the  last  couple  of
       decades,  and  the  year 2000 is particularly popular for all these
       sort of predictions.  Of course, my feeling is that predicting  all
       sorts  of  things  for  the  year  2000  may  be  a self-fulfilling
       prophecy.  If people expect some sort of  disaster,  their  actions
       may cause one.)

       (to be continued)


                                          Mark Leeper
                                          MT 3D-441 908-957-5619
                                          leeper@mtgzfs3.att.com


            Manners are especially the need of the plain.
            The pretty can get away with anything.
                                          -- Evelyn Waugh



















































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