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                        Mt. Holz Science Fiction Society
                    Club Notice - 5/13/94 -- Vol. 12, No. 46


       MEETINGS UPCOMING:

       Unless otherwise stated, all meetings are in Middletown 1R-400C
            Wednesdays at noon.

         _D_A_T_E                    _T_O_P_I_C

       06/01  GREEN MARS by Kim Stanley Robinson (Hugo Nominee)
       06/22  Hugo-nominated short stories
       07/13  MOVING MARS by Greg Bear (Hugo Nominee)
       08/03  GLORY SEASON by David Brin (Hugo Nominee)
       08/24  VIRTUAL LIGHT by William Gibson (Hugo Nominee)

       Outside events:
       The Science Fiction Association of Bergen County meets on the second
       Saturday of every month in Upper Saddle River; call 201-933-2724 for
       details.  The New Jersey Science Fiction Society meets on the third
       Saturday of every month in Belleville; call 201-432-5965 for details.


       HO Chair:     John Jetzt        MT 2G-432  908-957-5087 j.j.jetzt@att.com
       LZ Chair:     Rob Mitchell      HO 1C-523  908-834-1267 j.j.jetzt@att.com
       MT Chair:     Mark Leeper       MT 3D-441  908-957-5619 m.r.leeper@att.com
       HO Librarian: Nick Sauer        HO 4F-427  908-949-7076 n.j.sauer@att.com
       LZ Librarian: Lance Larsen      HO 2C-318  908-949-4156 l.f.larsen@att.com
       MT Librarian: Mark Leeper       MT 3D-441  908-957-5619 m.r.leeper@att.com
       Factotum:     Evelyn Leeper     MT 1F-329  908-957-2070 e.c.leeper@att.com
       All material copyright by author unless otherwise noted.

       1. These days America no longer seems  to  have  the  technological
       edge that it once had.  But France also appears to be losing a kind
       of reputation.  At one time the French were thought to be a  fairly
       sexy  people.   Foreigners would go to France for what was called a
       "good time."  Of course it  is  hard  to  tell  how  deserved  that
       reputation  was  since  most of the people going to France were the
       English.  Having been twice to the  vacation  center  of  Brighton,
       England,  I  can  tell you that it doesn't take a whole lot to make
       the English _t_h_i_n_k they are having a good time.  Beach-sitting and a
       mediocre fun pier is about all there is.  Now take a hamburger that
       dogs wouldn't eat in Jersey City, and even aptly call it  a  "wimpy
       burger," and you can make a fortune in England.  Hey it's got to be











       THE MT VOID                                                  Page 2



       better than eating grilled kidney, isn't it?

       England's standard of immorality is the (male) Member of Parliament
       who  thinks  it  is  terribly,  terribly  smashing  to wear women's
       foundation  garments.   George  Bernard  Shaw   pointed   out   "An
       Englishman thinks he is moral when he is only uncomfortable."  Even
       in his time there were a lot of these "moral"  people  in  England.
       So  being  next  to  England it is not surprising that France has a
       reputation as being a wild place to be.   Just  about  any  country
       (but  maybe  Saudi  Arabia) could get that reputation just by being
       the country to where the English escape.

       Anyway, France used to be the place to go for a wild time.  It  was
       the  home of the Moulin Rouge, the Folies-Bergere, the Can-Can, and
       other institutions too tame for HBO.  Paris was the City  of  Love.
       It has always been a racy place, and it stayed that way as the rest
       of the world became more explicit.  Now, however, a  Paris  company
       is  trying  to get the edge on both love and technology.  I will go
       into that next week.


       ===================================================================

       2. WILL THE LAST PERSON TO LEAVE THE PLANET  PLEASE  SHUT  OFF  THE
       SUN?  by  Mike  Resnick  (Tor,  ISBN  0-312-85276-2,  1992,  353pp,
       US$19.95) (a book review by Evelyn C. Leeper):

       This collection  contains  twenty-eight  of  Mike  Resnick's  short
       stories,  including  several  Hugo- and Nebula-award nominated (and
       winning) stories.  And it has all the pluses of many  of  Resnick's
       anthologies  (for  which  I  might  note  he was just nominated for
       another Hugo, this time as Best Pro Editor)--and all the minuses.

       On the plus side there  are  some  outstanding  stories,  including
       "Kirinyaga" (winner of the Hugo for Best Short Story, and nominated
       for the Nebula for Best Novelette--don't  ask  me  to  explain  the
       rules!),  "For  I  Have  Touched  the  Sky" (nominated for both the
       Nebula  and  the  Hugo  for  Best  Novelette),  "Winter  Solstice,"
       (nominated  for the Hugo for Best Short Story), and "The Light That
       Blinds, the Claws That Catch," and "Winter  Solstice."   The  first
       two  are  stories in resnick's "Kirinyaga" cycle--and one hopes the
       entire series will be collected in a single volume.   (The  latest,
       "A  Little  Knowledge,"  is  in the April issue of _A_s_i_m_o_v'_s _S_c_i_e_n_c_e
       _F_i_c_t_i_o_n, and is already on my list of stories to nominate  for  the
       Hugo  next  year.) "Winter Solstice" won the "Alexander" (the award
       of the Science Fiction Club at  AT&T--named  for  Alexander  Graham
       Bell, of course).  "The Light That Blinds, the Claws That Catch" is
       an alternate history  of  what  might  have  happened  if  Theodore
       Roosevelt's  wife  had not died in childbirth in 1884.  Resnick has
       written several alternate Teddy Roosevelt stories, but  unlike  his
       "Kirinyaga"  stories,  these  are  mutually  exclusive  rather than











       THE MT VOID                                                  Page 3



       connected.

       On the minus side is the sheer volume of stories, which means  that
       it's almost inevitable that some will be primarily filler material.
       Whether it's better to get more stories or a higher  percentage  of
       great  stories  is  a  matter  for debate, I suppose, but the lower
       quality of some of the pieces tends to bring the overall rating  of
       the  collection  down.  And Resnick's introductions to the stories,
       while frequently enlightening, can also be irritating.  No one  can
       introduce  twenty-eight  of  their  own  pieces  in  a  row without
       beginning to sound just a little self-aggrandizing,  so  I  suppose
       this may be inevitable.  On the other hand, reading this book a bit
       at a time instead of straight through  would  probably  solve  this
       problem,  and  Resnick  doesn't give away any surprises in them (an
       occasional failing elsewhere).  If nothing else,  his  introduction
       to "Kirinyaga" serves to remind us that there's probably some _g_r_e_a_t
       stuff buried in _L_a_s_t _D_a_n_g_e_r_o_u_s _V_i_s_i_o_n_s.

       On balance, I recommend this  collection.   It  _i_s  the  definitive
       collection  of the short fiction of an author who has, in spite, of
       his own intentions otherwise, found  himself  one  of  the  leading
       short  story writers of the last decade, and provides a wide sample
       of his work.

       [Resnick has again been nominated for the Hugo for Best Short Story
       this  year  for  "Mwalimu in the Squared Circle" in addition to his
       nomination as Best Pro Editor.  This makes eight  Hugo  nominations
       with  two  wins  for  his  writing, and six Nebula nominations, not
       counting this year's which I don't seem to have anywhere.]


       ===================================================================

       3. Lunacon '94 (part 2 of 3) (an abbreviated con report  by  Evelyn
       C. Leeper):

                      Alternate Religion in SF and Fantasy
                                 Saturday, 11AM
                   John Boardman, Mary Frey, Nancy C. Hanger,
                      Simon Lang, John Lee, Nancy Springer

       I got to this a little bit late, and had a heck of a time  matching
       up  participants'  names to people on the panel, probably because I
       didn't realize that Simon Lang was a woman.

       Though the topic was alternate religions, there was much discussion
       of  present-day  Earth religions (mostly Western religions), as you
       will see.  The panel began by defining religion as  the  "organized
       worship  of  a deity."  I guess that means that Buddhism, which has
       no deity per se, is not a religion.  Note that this definition also
       makes a distinction between religion and faith.











       THE MT VOID                                                  Page 4



       Boardman proposed the idea that many writers are anti-clerical  and
       use  alternate  religions  as  a safety net--they can attack a non-
       existent religion to avoid getting into trouble by attacking a real
       one.   He  gave  as  an  example  a  Philip  Jose Farmer story that
       satirized Judaism in a post-holocaust world--if  anyone  knows  the
       name  of  that  story,  please  let me know.  Boardman also claimed
       later that Glen Cook didn't care for any religion  because  he  has
       several  fighting  each  other--which  is not at all the conclusion
       that I believe one should draw from that.  In any case,  even  with
       fictional  religions,  it is sometimes hard to get that part of the
       story past the editor and the sales force.

       Someone  from  the  audience   asked   if   a   people's   "aspect"
       (appearance?)  affects their interface with infinity.  Someone else
       said something about how people  must  "realize  there's  no  order
       without  an  orderer," an old--and not very respected--argument for
       the existence of God.  Lang  said  that  religions  all  had  three
       parts:  pathway,  propitiation,  and  fertility.   She  felt that a
       society certainly  affected  a  religion,  saying,  "Religions  are
       created  as  mirrors  to society."  (As you can tell, non sequiturs
       abounded here, as "answers" from the  panel  often  had  little  or
       nothing  to  do  with  the questions, and the whole hour had a very
       stream-of-consciousness feel.)

       Someone asked what effect the discovery of  alien  life  will/would
       have  on  our  view  of  religion or God.  From the answers, it was
       clear that the panelists thought only  of  Western  religions  when
       thinking  of  "our religions," since they commented that aliens who
       had six arms would probably have six-armed gods, and that we  would
       have to deal with the aliens' view(s) of deity.  First, this sounds
       like an answer to the first question in  the  last  paragraph,  and
       second, this assumes that there are no religions on Earth that have
       such gods.  One can  only  assume  that  the  Hindu  pantheon  (for
       example)  is  as  alien  to the panelists as, well, _a_l_i_e_n pantheons
       would be.  Lang did answer the question ("how will we deal with the
       aliens' view of deity?") by saying we would "ignore it, despise it,
       or make war on it."  Later people noted that in religion, it  often
       seems  that  the closer a religion is to ours, the less we tolerate
       it, and that the most violent wars are  against  "heretics"  rather
       than "pagans."

       A  long  digression  on  the  conflicting  views  of  Jesuits   and
       Franciscans ensued, reinforcing my opinion of the Western (and even
       more specifically Christian) emphasis of the panel.

       Someone (probably in a desperate  attempt  to  get  back  on-topic)
       asked  what  an  author does when inventing a religion.  A panelist
       said that when Stephen Donaldson was asked this, he responded,  "We
       are  writers,  we  can  invent;  we  don't  have  to  do research."
       Nevertheless, the panelists felt that authors do research  religion
       in  general  for  commonalities  that  could  be used (the pathway,











       THE MT VOID                                                  Page 5



       propitiation,  and  fertility  aspects   mentioned   earlier,   for
       example).

       It seems to be possible, one person averred, to separate  religions
       into  two  types: the type that says, "God is out there somewhere,"
       and the type that says, "God is next door and you can  visit  him."
       I'm  not  sure  whether these are differences between religions, or
       between different types of faith.  (Remember that at the  beginning
       there was a distinction made between religion and faith.)

       Missionaries  and  their  place  in  all   this   were   mentioned.
       L. Sprague  de Camp wrote a story that used an analogy to represent
       missionaries (according  to  one  panelist--I  guess  this  was  an
       example of trying to couch an anti-church bias in different terms).
       In the story, humans meet a saurian race that uses body  paint  the
       way  we  use clothing.  The clothing market on Earth sees this as a
       great chance to open a new market and goes off to sell  clothes  to
       the  saurians.   When they return to Earth, however, they find that
       the saurians have convinced humans to stop wearing clothing and use
       paint  instead.  Unfortunately, I can think of no similar situation
       where religion A goes off to convert people from  religion  B,  and
       vice versa--and both are successful.

       Many  of  the  "side-effects"  of  religion  were  mentioned.   For
       example,  monarchies depend on the "divine right of kings"--without
       gods, there would be no monarchies, at least in the sense  we  know
       them.   Hanger  claimed that in addition all "higher" civilizations
       had or have  a  benevolent  deity,  but  since  she  didn't  define
       "higher" I suspect this turns out to be true because "higher" turns
       out to be those civilizations that have a benevolent diety.

       Someone in the  audience  complained  that  fantasy  novels  almost
       always  have everyone believing the same thing--there don't seem to
       be any denominations on these other worlds.  One of  the  panelists
       claimed this was true in the Middle Ages (I would argue that it was
       not--it's just that we ignore a lot of the  distinctions  or  sects
       that  were  eventually wiped out), but also agreed that a lot of it
       was either laziness or economy on the part of the author.   If  the
       story  isn't  about  doctrinal  differences, adding them to it just
       complicates things unnecessarily.

       As to whether a culture _a_l_w_a_y_s  develops  a  religion,  one  person
       claimed  that  even  gorillas  have  ritual dances to the moon.  (I
       don't find this ultimately convincing.)  Another quoted Disraeli as
       having   said,  "We  all  believe  in  some  sort  of  a  something
       somewhere."  James P. Hogan's _W_o_r_l_d _f_r_o_m _Y_e_s_t_e_r_y_e_a_r was cited as  a
       book  in  which  the  society  has no religion.  Lang observed that
       there might even be belief systems that we failed to  recognize  as
       religions  in real life, but if a book were that subtle it wouldn't
       work, because that would defeat the purpose of having it in  there.
       And  we  have  a  definite  tendency  to  label  anything  we don't











       THE MT VOID                                                  Page 6



       understand as religious in nature: if we dig up an artifact that we
       can't  think  of  a  specific  purpose  for,  we say it is a ritual
       object.  David Macaulay's _M_o_t_e_l _o_f _t_h_e  _M_y_s_t_e_r_i_e_s  is  the  perfect
       satire on this tendency.

       Someone suggested that if we contacted aliens, their religion might
       become the "religion du jour," as many people either adopted it, or
       combined it with ours.  Certainly  on  our  world,  religions  have
       adopted   parts  of  other  religions  as  they  encountered  them.
       (Someone--I think it was Boardman--said that Rose Kennedy,  a  _v_e_r_y
       devout  Catholic,  once fired a maid for dumping dishwater down the
       back steps and insulting the "little people.")

       Another theory of civilization and religion put forward by Boardman
       was  that increased "civilization" results in the diminution of the
       number of gods.  While it is true that  originally  Judaism  didn't
       claim  that  there  existed  only  one God, merely that Jews should
       worship only one, I think the generalization  of  this  is  totally
       wrong.   First of all, we need a metric to determine what is "more"
       or "less" civilized.  (Of course, this hearkens  back  to  Hanger's
       claim  earlier  that  all  "higher"  civilizations  had  or  have a
       benevolent deity, with exactly  the  same  stumbling  block.)   And
       second, the obvious extrapolation of this is that the most advanced
       civilization would have no gods.  Actually, the correct  answer  is
       that  the  most advanced civilization would have exactly the number
       of gods that exist, and any claim by someone as to what this  would
       be  is  colored  by  their  opinion of the number of gods that _t_h_e_y
       think exist.  However, someone else thought that the diminution  of
       the  number  of  gods  was  merely  a  consolidation of the various
       aspects into a single persona, and  didn't  represent  a  radically
       different view of the godhead.

       The  panel  closed  with  the  observation  that  one   thing   was
       predictable: as we meet more people (and aliens) who are different,
       we will probably become "more" of our own religion.  This has  been
       the  pattern  in  the past, and one might consider it the spiritual
       equivalent of "pulling the wagons into a  circle"  as  a  means  of
       defense.

                      The Once King: the Historical Arthur
                                  Saturday, 1PM
              Nancy C. Hanger (mod), John Boardman, Marina Frants,
                  Roberta Gellis, Debra Meskys, Jane T. Sibley

       Two books  were  recommended  at  the  start  of  this  panel:  _T_h_e
       _A_r_t_h_u_r_i_a_n  _E_n_c_y_c_l_o_p_e_d_i_a by Norris J. Lacy (1986, 649 pages) and _T_h_e
       _K_i_n_g _A_r_t_h_u_r _C_o_m_p_a_n_i_o_n by Phyllis Ann Karr (1983, 174 pages)  though
       they  are  more  about literature than about the historical Arthur.
       (Actually, there is a 1991 revised and expanded version of the Lacy
       called  _T_h_e  _N_e_w  _A_r_t_h_u_r_i_a_n _E_n_c_y_c_l_o_p_e_d_i_a and having 577 pages--and,
       yes, I know that's _f_e_w_e_r  pages  than  the  "unexpanded"  version.)











       THE MT VOID                                                  Page 7



       Meskys's magazine _N_e_i_k_a_s had a special Arthurian issue which is out
       of print now, but scheduled to be reprinted.

       The panelists talked  about  their  experiences  with  the  various
       literary  versions  of the King Arthur story.  Boardman said he was
       turned off by Tennyson's _I_d_y_l_l_s _o_f  _t_h_e  _K_i_n_g,  but  turned  on  by
       Malory's  _M_o_r_t_e  _d'_A_r_t_h_u_r,  even  though  he  agrees that Malory is
       grossly anachronistic.  Meskys liked T. H. White's _O_n_c_e _a_n_d  _F_u_t_u_r_e
       _K_i_n_g,  which she described as being a sort of "alternate timeline."
       She also recommended  Mary  Stewart's  trilogy  _C_r_y_s_t_a_l  _C_a_v_e,  _T_h_e
       _H_o_l_l_o_w  _H_i_l_l_s,  and  _T_h_e _L_a_s_t _E_n_c_h_a_n_t_m_e_n_t.  As she put it, "Stewart
       really makes it believable."  Gellis  said  she  liked  Malory  and
       Coleridge.   (If  Coleridge  did  something on King Arthur, I can't
       find it.)  Silby likes them all.

       Boardman sees Arthur as an archetype.  When the panelists discussed
       why other "heroes" were not as popular, Gellis said that Arthur was
       more sympathetic than most, and gave the example of Charlemagne  as
       an  unsympathetic  hero.   (Boskone  XXVI  in 1989 even had a panel
       titled "Why Not Charlemagne?"--I will not include all  my  comments
       on that here!)  Sibley notes that Arthur is also British, and hence
       "home-grown" to most English-speaking  readers.   (I  suppose  this
       displays  a  certain  Anglocentrism  in  her/our view of the world.
       This tendency of preferring "home-grown" heroes  explains  why  the
       Golem  of  Prague is much more popular among Jewish science fiction
       fans than among the fannish population at large.)   Gellis  thought
       that  in  addition,  the  Arthurian story is more cheerful than the
       French epics or other contenders.  And the panelists noted that one
       of  the  major sources of strife in the Arthurian legend, Lancelot,
       was a purely literary invention, and  was  probably  added  by  the
       French.   In  terms of the historical Arthur, Lancelot represents a
       merging  of  Gawain  and  Mordred,  particularly  as  described  in
       Geoffrey of Monmouth's version from the 12th Century.

       Hanger sees Arthur's appeal as being a noble yet tragic hero  in  a
       story  of  love and betrayal.  For all his virtues, Arthur also has
       human faults.  She sees him as a "continuation" of the  Irish  hero
       Cuchulain  (pronounced  "koo-hoo'-lin").   (It  was  noted  in this
       discussion that Irish--Gaelic--is even less phonetic than  English,
       and  that  the  Norse idiom for "It's Greek to me" is "He's talking
       Irish."  On the other hand, I am a bit  sceptical  of  someone  who
       pronounces  Celtic as "sel'-tik.")  Classic Greek tragic heroes had
       their fatal flaws (Oedipus had his hubris, for example),  and  even
       the   gods   had  their  fatal  flaws:  Achilles's  heel,  Baldur's
       susceptibility to mistletoe, etc.  One of the  causes  of  Arthur's
       downfall was his seduction by his half-sister, which was a literary
       addition, not by Malory, but some time  around  the  13th  Century.
       One  theory  proposed  was  that  this  was added to suggest to the
       reader/listener  that  you  always  have  the  seeds  of  your  own
       destruction  within you.  (And Galahad was added because the Church
       didn't want the  "morally  questionable"  Lancelot  as  the  hero.)











       THE MT VOID                                                  Page 8



       Another  theory  was  that  the  incest  motif  was  added  because
       Mordred's claim to the kingship was originally as Arthur's sister's
       son,  a  lineage  valid  in  Celtic  law  but  not  in English law.
       Therefore, English readers/listeners of the Middle Ages  would  not
       be able to make sense of Mordred's claim to the throne, so a direct
       claim was added.

       Panelists discussed the  many  cultures  that  have  a  sleeper  or
       sleeping  king  who  will  return  in  times  of trouble (the Golem
       again?).  One person mentioned Fletcher Pratt's _L_a_n_d _o_f _U_n_r_e_a_s_o_n as
       having  this  theme;  someone else suggested that Jesus was another
       "sleeping king."  From this thought someone else was reminded  that
       Arthur  also  ordered  a  slaughter  of  infants, which most people
       thought would not make a popular story (though it was claimed James
       Morrow was the ideal person to write it).

       Hanger said one of the main problems with studying  Arthur  is  the
       proliferation of badly researched books that are attempting to jump
       on a bandwagon rather than increase the knowledge of  the  subject.
       Even  respected  authors  seem  to  have  gone  astray.   From  the
       beginning, William of Malmesbury's account differed  from  Geoffrey
       of  Monmouth's.   More  recently, Norma Lorre Goodrich claimed that
       the French word that is translated as "bird" in most  texts  should
       really  be  translated  as  "altar"  (or maybe it was the other way
       around).  The Round Table was a 19th Century addition to the legend
       (I'm  not  sure  this  is  correct--at  least  one  source  I  read
       attributes it to Malory in the 15th Century), yet that is what most
       people  know  the best.  The romance between Guinevere and Lancelot
       is from Cretien de Troyes in the 12th Century.  And who knows  what
       else  people think of that was only introduced in the Lerner & Lowe
       musical?  (Certainly the reference to stopping for a cup of tea was
       grossly  anachronistic there!)  But since even the earliest sources
       dispute the dates of Arthur's life and death, it is  impossible  to
       be  completely  accurate.   One  theory  is that some of the events
       attributed to Arthur may actually have been connected with a son or
       nephew also named Arthur.

       On the other hand, do we  really  want  or  care  about  historical
       accuracy?   Gellis  thinks not.  What we want, according to her, is
       to fulfill the goal of the Society  for  Creative  Anachronism--"to
       celebrate the Middle Ages as it should have been."

       There was a dispute between Gellis  (who  claimed  the  sacrificial
       elements  in  the  Arthur  story  were  Christian)  and Sibley (who
       claimed they were Celtic).  As a disinterested bystander,  I  might
       claim  that they are both, because the concept of sacrifice, and in
       particular sacrifice of/by the leader of the community, is a common
       thread  through  many  religions.   (I  think  the  panelists  also
       mentioned this, and suggested _T_h_e _G_o_l_d_e_n _B_o_u_g_h by Sir James  Frazer
       as  a  basic  text about comparative religion; Frazer is best known
       for his theory of the sacrifice of the  priest-king  as  archetypal











       THE MT VOID                                                  Page 9



       across  cultures.)   Boardman  described this as "government strong
       enough to protect us and just enough not to oppress us"--one  can't
       help but feel that he has a definite political agenda here, but the
       concept of a "benevolent monarchy" has appealed to  people  in  the
       past.

       All this is similar to the tales of Robin Hood, which  tend  to  be
       added to, modified, and moved around in time.  Another similar hero
       who transcends time and space seems to be the Flying Dutchman, also
       found as Peter Rugg and even Charlie of the MTA.

       The movie _K_n_i_g_h_t_r_i_d_e_r_s was given  as  an  updating  of  the  Arthur
       legend  worth  seeing.  Marion Zimmer Bradley's _M_i_s_t_s _o_f _A_v_a_l_o_n got
       favorable mention, as did William Mayne's _E_a_r_t_h_f_a_s_t_s, and also  _T_h_e
       _C_h_i_l_d _Q_u_e_e_n by Nancy MacKenzie, due out in August.

       (Note to convention program planners: Nancy Hanger is very good  at
       "taking the panel back" from panelists who tend to monopolize it; I
       recommend her as a moderator.)

                 Reinventing the Wheel of If: Alternate History
                                  Saturday, 3PM
               Moshe Feder (mod), John Boardman, Evelyn C. Leeper,
                Vonda N. McIntyre, Mark Olson, Christopher Rowley

       [Thanks to Mark, who took notes for me for this panel.]

       There were the  usual  introductions.   People  who  have  read  my
       various  Boskone  reports  know  that  Olson  is a long-time fan of
       alternate histories, and Boardman, McIntyre, and Rowley  are  well-
       known authors.  Feder is the editor of the Military Book Club.

       We began with definitions.  I said that an alternate  history,  for
       me,  has  to  be  something  grounded in a historical change.  Just
       saying that it's the  same  world  except  that  magic  works,  for
       example,  does  not  make an alternate history (which is not to say
       that those can't be enjoyable--I loved  Esther  Friesner's  _D_r_u_i_d'_s
       _B_l_o_o_d, which falls into this category).  Why is it science fiction?
       Well, you could do some hand-waving and say that it is because  the
       changes  are  caused by changes at the quantum level, etc., but the
       fact is that alternate history stories are science fiction  because
       science  fiction  fans  read  them.  (This is addressed later--stay
       tuned.)  Boardman said that he started reading alternate  histories
       with  such  stories  as Sir Winston Churchill's "If Lee had not Won
       the Battle of Gettysburg," something by Anatole  France  (though  I
       can't  find  any  Anatole  France  stories  in the Usenet alternate
       history bibliography), and Murray Leinster's  "Sidewise  in  Time,"
       which  were  the  stories  that got the field moving and got people
       thinking  how  nice  things  would  be  if  they  had  turned   out
       differently.   Olson said that he started with L. Sprague de Camp's
       _L_e_s_t _D_a_r_k_n_e_s_s _F_a_l_l and Mark  Twain's  _C_o_n_n_e_c_t_i_c_u_t  _Y_a_n_k_e_e  _i_n  _K_i_n_g











       THE MT VOID                                                 Page 10



       _A_r_t_h_u_r'_s _C_o_u_r_t.  (Boardman noted that in the latter all the changes
       were eventually negated, so perhaps it should be  classified  as  a
       secret history rather than an alternate history.)

       Feder wanted to make a distinction  between  worlds  in  which  the
       change is a given, and those in which someone is doing the changes.
       Well, yes, you can split them that way, but to  what  purpose?   (I
       guess the latter imply time travel, while the former don't.)

       Rowley felt that in today's market--presumably meaning readers  who
       were  historical  literate  as  well  as  science fiction fans--you
       needed  to  work  out  your  consequences  well.   When   alternate
       histories  were young, the novelty would carry them to some extent,
       but today everyone is looking closely at exactly  what  happens  in
       your  story after you decide to have the Manhattan Project fail (or
       whatever).  For that matter, they are  also  looking  at  _w_h_y  your
       Manhattan  Project  fails,  and  if _t_h_a_t makes sense.  Olson agreed
       that this attention to detail was what made a novel such  as  Harry
       Turtledove's  _G_u_n_s  _o_f  _t_h_e  _S_o_u_t_h  such a good book, and that even
       though he (Olson) wasn't a Civil War buff, he could appreciate  it.
       He  also  felt  that  Turtledove  did  a  good  job of presenting a
       balanced view of the South, as opposed to what one used to  see  in
       less   sophisticated  alternate  histories  (or  for  that  matter,
       probably still do in some markets).  (There was some  concern  that
       we  were revealing too much of the plot in discussing the book, but
       I don't think the key points were actually supposed to  be  kept  a
       secret.)

       Someone in the audience asked if there were any alternate histories
       in  which  Charles  I  won  the  English  Civil  War.   Yes--  John
       Whitbourn's _A  _D_a_n_g_e_r_o_u_s  _E_n_e_r_g_y  (that  chronological  listing  by
       divergence is _r_e_a_l_l_y useful for questions like this!)  Someone else
       said that everyone does the same old thing, giving the example that
       no one has Germany winning World War _I.  Immediately several people
       jumped on that, mentioning  among  other  stories,  Fritz  Leiber's
       "Catch That Zeppelin."  Other stories with this premise include Tom
       Purdom's "Redemption of August," Stephen Leacock's "If Germany  Had
       Won,"  and  Guido  Morselli's  _P_a_s_t  _C_o_n_d_i_t_i_o_n_a_l:  _A  _R_e_t_r_o_s_p_e_c_t_i_v_e
       _H_y_p_o_t_h_e_s_i_s.  But Feder agreed  that  World  War  II  was  far  more
       popular,  no  doubt  because  it  was  bigger and "juicier."  Also,
       Americans don't understand World War I.  We came  in  late  in  the
       war,  it  happened a long time ago, and it happened somewhere else.
       Feder gave  the  example  that  there  might  be  some  fascinating
       critical  points  in  Japanese history but he hasn't read enough to
       know what they are.   Conversely,  the  common  change  points  are
       overdone  because  authors  just  don't  know  enough  of any other
       history.

       Someone  suggested  that  we  should  "talk  favorites."   Rowley's
       included  Philip  K. Dick's  _M_a_n  _i_n  _t_h_e  _H_i_g_h  _C_a_s_t_l_e  and  Keith
       Roberts's _P_a_v_a_n_e.  Olson repeated that  Turtledove's  _G_u_n_s  _o_f  _t_h_e











       THE MT VOID                                                 Page 11



       _S_o_u_t_h  was very good.  Boardman said that he liked James P. Hogan's
       _P_r_o_t_e_u_s _P_r_o_j_e_c_t, "which gives you three alternate histories for the
       price of one."  He particularly liked that Hogan told us why he was
       writing it--that he had read a claim that Germany was rebuilt as  a
       bulwark  against  Communism.   (Of  course,  that's  why the Church
       backed Nazi Germany during the 1930s, after all.)  I mentioned Ward
       Moore's  _B_r_i_n_g _t_h_e _J_u_b_i_l_e_e as a classic, though other panel members
       didn't think it was very good.  (Well, I didn't like _T_h_e _M_a_n _i_n _t_h_e
       _H_i_g_h  _C_a_s_t_l_e  that  much,  so  I  guess  it  evens  out.)   I  also
       recommended Gregory Benford  and  Martin  H. Greenberg'  first  two
       anthologies  _W_h_a_t  _M_i_g_h_t  _H_a_v_e  _B_e_e_n  _1  and  _2  and Mike Resnick's
       _A_l_t_e_r_n_a_t_e _P_r_e_s_i_d_e_n_t_s and _A_l_t_e_r_n_a_t_e _K_e_n_n_e_d_y_s.  (I didn't  think  his
       later _A_l_t_e_r_n_a_t_e _W_a_r_r_i_o_r_s or _B_y _A_n_y _O_t_h_e_r _F_a_m_e were that good.)

       Feder  asked  if  there  were  any  alternate  histories  in  which
       Christianity  doesn't  rise  to  prominence and "Rome goes Jewish"?
       Boardman immediately responded yes, and I  was  able  to  add  that
       there  was  one  by  Kim  Newman Eugene Byrne in Brian Stableford's
       _T_a_l_e_s _o_f _t_h_e _W_a_n_d_e_r_i_n_g _J_e_w called, perhaps not  surprisingly,  "The
       Wandering  Christian."   McIntyre  mentioned  John M. Ford's _D_r_a_g_o_n
       _W_a_i_t_i_n_g in which Christianity is a minor, almost unknown cult.

       Boardman again brought up the point  made  earlier  by  Feder  that
       there  are  two  kinds of alternate histories, one with time travel
       and one without--or rather, one in which the change is internal and
       one in which the changes are made by time travelers.

       McIntyre pointed out that changes occurring a  thousand  years  ago
       make even five hundred years ago unrecognizable.  Feder agreed that
       this led to a certain artificiality in alternate  history  stories,
       where  they  have  to  follow only one change, but history wouldn't
       work like that.  Boardman gave the example of a world in which  the
       South won the Civil War, but all the (Northern) Presidents were the
       same--this is _e_x_t_r_e_m_e_l_y unlikely.  I again mentioned _D_r_u_i_d'_s _B_l_o_o_d,
       in  which  the  change  was  long, long ago, yet most of the famous
       people in our 18th Century have exact parallels in that world.   Of
       course,  I  am  willing  to forgive that (maybe because the book is
       intended humorously rather than as a serious study), but am annoyed
       when I see it in a more serious work.

       This led Feder to  ask  the  panelists'  most  and  least  favorite
       mistakes.   Olson  said  his  was  forgetting that history goes on.
       Though it's true that China remained moderately static for  a  long
       time,  it  is  also  unlikely  that a Rome that didn't fall sixteen
       hundred years ago  would  still  look  the  same  today.   Boardman
       disliked  when  the  change was caused by something silly (and gave
       the example _B_r_i_n_g _t_h_e _J_u_b_i_l_e_e, though  that  didn't  strike  me  as
       based on a silly change).

       I said that what bothered me the most was that authors  don't  seem
       to  understand  causes  and  they don't seem to understand effects.











       THE MT VOID                                                 Page 12



       That is, they make changes that won't bring about the scenario they
       have,  and they have some things remain static that certainly would
       have been changed.  My standard example of the latter is a world in
       which  World  War  II  never  happened,  yet  John Kennedy is still
       elected President in 1960.  Of course, having  said  that,  I  also
       confessed  that  Robert  Silverberg's  "Via  Roma,"  set  in a 19th
       Century Rome which never  fell,  avoided  these  pitfalls  (with  a
       couple of very minor slips) but the result was a story that left me
       nothing familiar to grab on to  or  relate  to.   With  me,  you're
       damned  if  you  do and damned if you don't.  Rowley suggested that
       this may be another reason why World War II and the American  Civil
       War  are  used so often--they were recent enough that the resulting
       world of 1994 would have something recognizable.  (Regarding  World
       War  II,  Boardman  said that even without Hitler, there would have
       been World War II, but no Holocaust.  He  figured  Hugenberg  might
       have been in control.)

       McIntyre asked if anyone had  read  Peter  Dickinson's  stories  in
       which  Edward  Duke  of Clarence did not die in 1887 and went on to
       become King of England instead of his younger brother George.   (So
       far  there  have been two: _K_i_n_g _a_n_d _J_o_k_e_r and _S_k_e_l_e_t_o_n-_i_n-_W_a_i_t_i_n_g.)
       There  were  also  mentions  of  Avram  Davison's   _A_d_v_e_n_t_u_r_e_s   _i_n
       _U_n_h_i_s_t_o_r_y, which Olson recommended for a Hugo this year.

       Feder suggested that there are  two  ways  to  write  an  alternate
       history:   as   a   conventional  story,  or  as  a  textbook-style
       description.  In the latter category, the  outstanding  example  is
       Robert  Sobel's  _F_o_r  _W_a_n_t  _o_f  _a  _N_a_i_l ...; _I_f _B_u_r_g_o_y_n_e _H_a_d _W_o_n _a_t
       _S_a_r_a_t_o_g_a, a 1973 book which assumes Burgoyne beat Gates at Saratoga
       and  the American rebellion collapsed.  It is a full-length history
       text of the "Confederation of North America" and the "United States
       of  Mexico,"  complete  with completely fictitious bibliography and
       completely fictitious publishing information on the copyright page!
       Why someone doesn't reprint this, I don't know--it is marvelous!

       It  was  mentioned  that  Harry  Turtledove,  in  addition  to  his
       "Worldwar"  series,  was  working  on an alternate history in which
       there was no American Revolution.  Called _T_h_e _T_w_o  _G_e_o_r_g_e_s,  it  is
       being  co-authored  with  Richard Dreyfuss.  Olson noted that there
       was a famous painting by Gainsborough called "The Two  Georges";  I
       added that people on the Net were already suggesting that it should
       be used as the cover art.

       Someone in the audience asked about _F_a_t_h_e_r_l_a_n_d (by Robert  Harris).
       This  and Turtledove's _G_u_n_s _o_f _t_h_e _S_o_u_t_h have become the best-known
       alternate histories in the last few years.  (The announcement  that
       _F_a_t_h_e_r_l_a_n_d  is "soon to be a major motion picture" didn't hurt it.)
       Rowley said that he thought _F_a_t_h_e_r_l_a_n_d was good; it  was  "coherent
       and  pretty believable."  I mentioned that earlier Len Deighton had
       written _S_S-_G_B along similar lines.












       THE MT VOID                                                 Page 13



       Feder asked if we imagined our own history as an  alternate  world,
       where  did  we  go  wrong?   Rowley suggested that the invention of
       gunpowder was a bad idea.  Olson pointed out that since we are  all
       the  results  of  this world and its population explosion, he isn't
       too thrilled with changing things.  McIntyre felt  that  she  would
       like  to  change  the  contempt  of the Christian church for women.
       Boardman thought that the status of women had reached  a  nadir  in
       the  19th  Century (at least in Western civilization), and that now
       only was it better now than a century ago, but it had  been  better
       earlier  as  well.  He also asked if anyone knew of a non-religious
       argument against feminism.

       I noted that much of what is wrong with  the  world  is  also  what
       brings about progress, and I want to know if I get rid of the Black
       Death, what am I getting instead?  Olson added that the Black Death
       freed Europe from being static (like China).

       After all this discussion, the panel agreed that one thing  science
       fiction  and  alternate  histories  have in common is that they are
       both about world-building.  Classical science fiction  changes  the
       physical  constraints;  alternate  histories change the historical.
       So maybe this "world-building"  is  the  science  fiction/alternate
       history connection.

       Someone in the audience asked  about  the  14th  and  15th  Century
       Chinese  explorations--what  if  they had reached Europe?  Boardman
       thought they were probably referring to the Yuan  (Mongol)  Dynasty
       which  was  from  1279  to  1368.  Of course, it wasn't as if China
       didn't know about Europe.  As someone asked, "Did you ever hear  of
       Marco  Polo?"  Olson felt that the expansion was doomed because the
       emperor required too much control.  McIntyre asked what might  have
       happened  if  the  Chinese had gotten across the Pacific.  This was
       deemed somewhat unlikely unless they went via  Alaska--the  Pacific
       Ocean  is  _v_e_r_y  wide.   Olson added that had the Chinese gotten to
       North America, they might have  released  horses  there,  and  that
       would  have made a difference, since all native American horses had
       gone extinct  before  the  Spaniards  arrived.   Boardman  said  he
       thought  the  Appaloosa  of  the Nez Perce tribe was a native breed
       that had not become extinct  during  the  Ice  Ages,  but  I  don't
       believe  that  is  true.   According  to _G_r_o_l_i_e_r'_s _A_c_a_d_e_m_i_c _O_n-_L_i_n_e
       _E_n_c_y_c_l_o_p_e_d_i_a,  for  example,  "the  [Nez  Perce]  Plateau   culture
       acquired  Plains  traits  after  the  introduction (c. 1700) of the
       horse simulated trade and war contacts."  (As an observation,  this
       means that some of the "traditional" culture that the Europeans are
       accused of destroying was in fact  created  by  their  presence  as
       well.)

       Someone wanted to get back to the Chinese Khan whose fleet was sunk
       in  a storm.  (Feder noted that storms seem to stop armadas in many
       cultures.)   Someone  else  said  that  the  Khan  Dynasty  (Mongol
       Dynasty?)  extended all the way to the Caspian Sea, and the Chinese











       THE MT VOID                                                 Page 14



       were well aware of Europe.  (Well, we knew that.)   Feder  said  he
       thought  the  original  question  would have been better phrased as
       referring to oceanic contact with other civilizations.

       An audience member said that it seemed to him as if most  alternate
       histories were based on some violent premise (although I'm not sure
       the non-existence of a war could  properly  be  termed  that),  and
       asked  if  there  were  any  based  on non-violent events.  Well of
       course there are dozens, probably hundreds,  based  on  changes  in
       scientific  discoveries,  etc.,  but  a recent source might be Mike
       Resnick's _A_l_t_e_r_n_a_t_e _P_r_e_s_i_d_e_n_t_s anthology, which looks at what might
       have  happened  if  various  Presidential elections or other events
       turned out differently.  Boardman thought that most of the  stories
       were  wildly  improbable  (I  have  to  agree that the premise that
       Victoria Woodhull might have been  elected  President  in  1872  is
       extremely  unlikely).   Feder  mentioned  a  story in which Lincoln
       becomes a sad and forgotten man, but I  don't  think  he  gave  the
       title  or  author.  (It could possibly be Lloyd Lewis's "If Lincoln
       Had Lived"  or  Oscar  Lewis's  "The  Lost  Years:  A  Biographical
       Fantasy.")  Olson said that de Camp's _L_e_s_t _D_a_r_k_n_e_s_s _F_a_l_l eliminates
       the "Dark Ages" through technology.  Someone noted that Carl  Sagan
       had  once  asked what might have happened if the ancient Greeks had
       not become mystical.  Olson responded that it wasn't mysticism;  it
       was that they made experimental science lower class.

                                 [End of Part 2]


                                          Mark Leeper
                                          MT 3D-441 908-957-5619
                                          m.r.leeper@att.com



            In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something
            to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a
            Republican.
                                          -- H. L. Mencken